Lillian Allen

Lillian Allen, currently Toronto’s Poet Laureate, has lived in the St. Clair West neighbourhood for most of her 60 year sojourn in Toronto. This exciting interview brings glimpses of the neighbourhood and shares the importance of St. Clair West to the black and West Indian communities in Toronto over that period. Lillian Allen traces her own journey as an educator, poet and activist over these testing and sometimes triumphant times - against the backdrop of the St. Clair West community she calls home.

AUDIO INTERVIEW

TRANSCRIPT

00:00 INTERVIEWER BETSY: So, this is November 23, 2023, and we are pleased and thrilled to finally be sitting down with Lillian Allen and making a recording of some of her memories of this neighbourhood. 

00:17 LILLIAN: Um hum.

0:18 BETSY: So, we’ll just, we were thinking about, you said you moved here in 1975?

00:28 LILLIAN: Yeah. 

00:29 BETSY: And it's weird. Oh, well, that's almost 50 years ago. 

00:33 LILLIAN: Yes.

00:34 BETSY: That's amazing. 

00:37 LILLIAN: I lived on Oakwood. 

00:39 BETSY: Right.

00:40 LILLIAN: Yeah. 

00:41 BETSY: And did, you were at York at the time?

00:45 LILLIAN: Yeah, well, I think it took me a while to get into York.

00:49 BETSY: Um-hum

00:51 LILLIAN: I worked downtown at one of the insurance companies doing the daily math, (I love math) which I've done in an hour or an hour and a half, and then went to the mail room

to hang out with the guys.

0:01:08 BETSY: Right, right.

0:01:09 LILLIAN: So yeah, I got, I was at York then.

I was in Canada before and then the States and then when I finally came back,

I came back to Toronto. 

0.01:26: BETSY: And where were you originally from?

0:01:30 LILLIAN: Jamaica. I was born in Jamaica. And I left at the end of high school in 1969.

0:01:40 BETSY: Wow. And did you have family or friends that brought you to Toronto or?

0:01:46 LILLIAN: I actually went to Kitchener/Waterloo. Yeah, I had a sister who was there. And she had come up earlier and there was just an opportunity to sort of get out, which I was raring to do and which you are brought up to do.

0:02:04 BETSY: To want to do? 

0:02:05 LILLIAN: To leave, yeah, because the opportunities were so small. And I was also excited about just different things, different ideas. And I always wondered when I saw the cruise ships, because my father would take us to go fishing on the beach and the rocks on the beach and where they were going, and if they had houses, what they lived like, and also the airplanes, which somehow would only come by on a Sunday over the area that I lived. And I'd always wonder, you know, where were they going? Where did they sleep? What was their houses like, who were they like? And I just had that hunger and thirst to find that out and to go see that other world.

0:02:59 BETSY: Yeah, wow, fantastic. Did you leave many behind? Where were you in the sibling order? You had a sister here and-- - 

0:03:12 LILLIAN: Yeah, I had a sister here and I'm trying to give, she was the first, yeah, she was a first to venture out, right? There were 10 of us, kids, right, and mother and father. So I was kind of the second. There's another sister who went to the Bahamas and then went back to Jamaica, yeah. But yeah, I sort of was one who came and brought everybody else. 

0:03:46 BETSY: Okay, so everyone migrated. 

0:03:49 LILLIAN: So yeah. So, another sister that was close with my age went to the States and that was one of the reasons I went to the States also and then when I came back, I realized everybody wanted to come and there are so many opportunities. Because I went to Jamaica and I thought I would never, ever, ever go to North America again and I swore up and down the Bible and I gave away my typewriters and everything, right? But the minute I arrived home and started to make a journey, I realize it was a mistake. And then starting to live among people who didn't even know how to get a passport. People who didn't have money. I don't know how they ate. You know. And I realized that although I did have a bit of privilege in Jamaica that I had this vast opportunity. And You know, why was I there trying to help the poor by trying to be poor?

0:05:08 BETSY: What sent you back to Jamaica? Was it experiences in Canada that didn't feel like home?

0:05:15: LILLIAN: Yeah, you're totally kind of adrift. Yeah, everything is unfamiliar. It's a rough thing to leave everything you know, all the comforts, all the signals and all the, you know, it's a rough existence. I mean, you live, right. I still find it rough now. But the thing that actually sparked me to go back was the Mandalay Revolution, the Socialist Revolution. 

0:05:44 BETSY: Oh, okay, yeah, so you were hopeful, yeah. 

0:05:46 LILLIAN: Yeah, I thought, I'm gonna be part of that, you know. - Right. - So, I went back to be part of that. I spent a year, and I figure I wasn't helping anybody.

0:06:01 BETSY: More complicated than in our dreams.

0:06:07 LILLIAN: Yeah, especially for the privileged. Because you know, I'd work in a factory here, did all kinds of stuff at that discipline. Yeah. You know, I understand, you know, Marxist idea of that discipline of the factory worker, right? So, to go back into the very, you know, elegantly lived leisure. Yeah.

0:06:30 BETSY: Which was the class you were in in Jamaica. So, you were sort of in a different class? 

0:06:37 LILLIAN: Yeah, I was in a different class. It wasn’t upper class. I think, probably middle with aspiring to, but I had access. Yeah, right. Yeah. And social access. Yeah. And so forth. 

0:06:50 BETSY: That's fascinating. 

0:06:51 LILLIAN: Yeah. And I had a government job when I went back. Yeah. So, it was interesting. I learned by, I learned a real, you know, meaning of, I guess, privilege. Yeah. When I, when I, when I went back, I didn't quite understand it. And I figure, wow, I did a lot of little things, started a magazine for the Minister of Education, wrote some children stories and different registers of the language for them to use in the schools. But, you know, the vastness of the inequity, you know, colonialization and all of that. Are you fond of that? And, you know, the rich getting richer everywhere, right? - Yeah. - And, you know, my neighbors were still going barefoot, walk barefoot, right? And, you know, wanted money every time, which, you know, so yeah, it woke me up, got me smart. Yeah. 

0:08:09 BETSY: Wow. So you came back. So, did you say you went to the U.S. and then came back here? 

0:08:18 LILLIAN: Yeah, I went to the U.S. first. And then I went to Jamaica from the U.S. and then came back here. I didn't come back here for a little bit, but then went to Jamaica to join the revolution.

0:08:31 BETSY: Right.

0:08:32 LILLIAN: And come back, yeah. 

0:08:34 BETSY: Yeah, so you lived on Oakwood. 

0:08:35 LILLIAN: Yeah.

0:08:36 BETSY: So then when you came back, the second time, where did you live? 

0:08:38 LILLIAN: No, that's when I first came back to Toronto. - Yeah. - When my first time was in Kitchener/Waterloo, and then from there to the States, and then Jamaica and back to Kitchener/Waterloo, then back to Jamaica, and then back to Toronto. 

0:08:54 BETSY: Your sister was a steady mainstay. 

0:08:58 LILLIAN: She was, in fact, she's still around. She has a big business. She's, you know, employed over sixty people, you know, doing well, sort of, yeah, she achieved the American Dream.

0:09:18 BETSY: So, we lived, we were neighbours in the early 90s. Is that when you lived on Arlington? 

0:09:32 LILLIAN: Yeah. I live a couple of doors up there. Yeah. Yeah. 

0:09:36 BETSY: And so, what happened between, in those, in between years? Did you live in this neighborhood or somewhere else? 

0:09:44 LILLIAN: I Moved out of this neighborhood. And I lived in the East End for a little bit. That was in the late seventies. And I worked with Black Education Project, which was out of St. Barnabas Church. The programs, right? Yeah. Marlene Green, Fran Endicott, you know, Franklin Harvey, all those really heavy lifters, right? But I knew there's something about it that furthered my alienation. I just knew I couldn't be, that I couldn't be there, that wasn't, I couldn't. I could now, but then I just said I got to find somewhere where things are familiar where, you know. Yeah, so when did I come back here? I can't even remember, but I lived a little further west, near Weston Road, off Rogers. And then when I moved here in the ninety’s, that’s when I came back closer to this neighbourhood.

0:11:06 BETSY: So, you said Fran Endicott, Marlene Green, and who was the other person? 

0:11: 08 LILLIAN: Franklyn Harvey. 

0:11:015 BETSY: So, could you say a bit more about the Black Education Project? 

0:11:19 LILLIAN: Well, that was addressing racism, inequality. The folks were connected up to people in the Caribbean who were fighting the colonial structures. But it was, I feel it was one of the most grassroots organizations that I've been involved with. It had its main kind of thrust was to work in the school system to deal with the racism that was coming down on the Black kids who were coming. And one of the main things was the streaming of Black kids. So, it didn't matter how bright they were or whatever, they just assumed they were going to go into trades. So that was a big problem. And then their own kind of, the young Black kids, kind of difficulty and challenges with dealing with this social reality and they're just facing it. So, they decided to deal with that on an advocacy level and also providing after-school programs. They fought for. I don't know if you remember, all these heritage classes after school. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And Fred Case, you know, most of those people are in the other room now. Oh, and much needed rest.

0:12:58 BETSY: Yes. (laughter)

0:13:04 LILLIAN: And so that was kind of very progressive and they always had a space or two. And they ran some accounts. They had Black Family Day. You know, it was one of the places. Remember in those days we had telephones and not even everybody had telephones, right? Because a lot of West Indians called their people on Sunday, you know, longing to go home and cry and run up their bills in the hundreds of dollars. But it was a place if you heard a piece of news, like this happened, this person was arrested, this person died, it was an accident, you could just go to that place and there'd be dozens of other people there, right? That was something that happened quite naturally and I miss that in the Black community. We're so fragmented and now with social media and whatever, it's all by digital, you know, you have to really make a big effort to gather. 

0:14:12 BETSY: Yes, - Yes, especially, and even more after COVID. 

0:14:15 LILLIAN: Yeah, after COVID, yeah. The other great thing about the Black Education Project was that it involved the parents. It believed in the parents' responsibility in not only sort of shaping the values of their children but transforming the system so that it works for their children. So, parents were involved. So they're powerful, were welcoming, you know. Everybody's children were your children. It takes a village, that kind of thing. Yeah. So, I worked with those folks and that was really good mentorship. You know, I was of them actually. Yeah.

0:15:04 BETSY: And did the Black Education Project connect to the Robina ‘Y’ and the things that were happening there? 

0:15:11 LILLIAN: It did. It was kind of, to me, you know, this is all my personal perspective, my experience. It was kind of the lead organization, so it supported all of that. It supported all the other smaller organization. I mean, the general philosophy was, you know, autonomy of small groups that would network and build. I mean, those were some of the things I learned and believed in, you know, so that it wouldn't want to like take it over and take it, it wanted to support it to be strong. And then it would go on and do that for another one. And yeah. So yeah, it was pretty much involved. And of course, Fran and Marlene and those folks are pretty much respected and revered. Yeah. 

0:16:06 BETSY: Wow. So, how did you move into the arts and dub poetry and spoken word and was it part of that? 

0:16:16 LILLIAN: Well, so I worked with a number of other things while working with the Black Education Project. I started up a number of Black initiatives in the city, Central Neighborhood House, for example. The white kids would beat them up. So, what they decided to do was tell the Black kids for their own safety and not to come. And so they reached out to us at BP and I was the ED then and I'm like, no, that's not gonna work. We're gonna create a program for them. 

0:16:55 BETSY: At the Centre. 

0:16:56 LILLIAN: At the Centre. And they have to be safe. And we have to talk to the police. And you have to put me on the board. 

0:17:00 BETSY: Wow.

0:17:01 LILLIAN: - And yeah. - Yeah. - And you know, but things like that, and that connected up with things like Dixon Hall, and Charles Smith later came on. He was fantastic, started Black Perspective, and Amy Khan Youth Project. You will remember Culture for Survival, five Rhythm Drummers, Troops and Rites, you know, all those folks are always seeping culture when I was little and always writing. In fact, when I was in New York, I was writing for Daily, Caribbean Daily, right? And doing poetry in the park and studying, you know, poetry and writing and so forth. So, my own practice has been kind of fundamental to my mental health. And that's, I think, that's it for a lot of artists. That's the thing that kept me steady. And going, that was the place I could chart my own ideas and, you know, my own changes, my own growth. It's something I owned, so I didn't have to want anything anybody's had. When I collaborated on The Coolest Person, you know, because I know I have something for myself. And I am lucky that it took off and I got so much good feedback because that really, just fantastic. What a life. Yeah, I mean, you know, it might seem natural now, but trust me, I'm surprised and I'm still surprised. I was doing what I had to do, sometimes just to keep myself above water, just to keep myself steady, just to deal with the absurdity. It seems like war. I mean, I just get into that. But you know, it's like, yeah, it's just so, so, of course, when people started loving it, and demanding it, you know, because sometimes when I didn't show up at the rallies in the Black community, they sent people to my house. Go bring the poet. Yeah, it's a poetry. And I would go. So, um, yeah. So yeah,

0:19:45 BETSY: The people's poet for sure. People's poet. Yeah. Yeah. 

0:19:50 LILLIAN: Yeah. So, um, yes, I've been doing that kind of thing. And the other great thing about that is that I get to see. A lot of people do a lot of work, and they don't see the results. Or if they see the results, it's small. A social worker gets somebody a place and they don't see them again. Or they put in a lot of time at meetings and more dialogue than anything else. I actually see the transformation that happens. On a small scale. I understand it on a larger scale, when people get empowered and connected. And that is, you know, I, yeah, that is and then you know, living as long as I do. Yeah, bless the universe. Just to see, you know, like the form turned to a movement is to see the dozens and dozens of people I’ve mentored in all kinds of positions, now doing good, returning to the things that they understand can transform their lives and the world. So yeah, so that's how I just sort of got to where I got to.

0:21:20 BETSY: So, any thoughts about this neighbourhood and how it supported or connected you or didn't? Ellington's? The role that it played? Sam and Rita Burke? 

0:21:34 LILLIAN: Yeah, totally that was yeah, I mean that was kind of later. But this was a neighbourhood that was comfortable for me. There was something. There was a contemporary thing, you know, they're the old, the old world edge that's there. Yeah. But there was a contemporary kind of edge to it, right? And there's a time when, of course, artists and teachers could afford to live here. So a lot of them lived here. And we all seem to be about the business of changing the world, not, you know, going to whatever, right? Even if people did that everybody seemed conscripted into, you know, we can, we can make sure better for everybody, not just ourselves, right? So that was always the vibe. And Rita, there are lots of things in the area that I loved. Um, there was Round P. Yeah. There's a restaurant that was in that same little strip where Ellington is. It was a Jamaican restaurant okay right and um when I lived in the further west. Actually, that's when I was having the kids yeah. That would be my place to go get my food. 

0:23:20 BETSY: Yes. 

0:23:21 LILLIAN: You know, it was a husband and wife, mother and father team. And they would do stuff, and you'd hang out and talk news from home and so forth. And Rita's bookstore, I mean, that was, you know, just so foundational to the community. Yeah, it brought in that literary, you know, sense to it. - Yeah. - And also, Rita was involved in, they were involved in a few things, like supporting young people. They had some programs, getting people into sciences.

0:24:08 BETSY: - Yeah, yeah.

0:24: 09 LILLIAN: It was. It reminds me of Third World Bookstore, is that it has a worldwide reputation, anywhere you go, you're in London, you know, and somebody said they're going to Toronto. Oh, maybe to go to the Burke’s, or maybe to go to Third World, right? Those were like the landmark places, right? And not to mention, you know, Sam and Rita, are just such lovely people. You don't want to leave. Right. 

0:24:41 BETSY: They engage you. 

0:24:42 LILLIAN: Yeah. And they did a lot of programming. Yeah.

0:24:45 LILLIAN: So that sense of community, it just helped to root you more and make you feel more like this is your place. 

0:24:54 BETSY: Yeah. 

0:24:55LILLIAN: Right. Yeah. There are also a bunch of hairdressers. Oh. Along there. 

0:25:04 BETSY: Along St. Clair. 

0:25:05 LILLIAN: Yeah. Black hairdressers. Right. And you know, while all women worry about their weight, Black women worry about their hair. That's a good thing. Yeah. And of course, I used to go, and I used to straighten my hair. Whatever, we won’t go into that, and, but they were there. So that was another place you could go and hang out and just kind of talk. Yeah, but I have to just tell you this. I would go and then one of the hairdressers. Actually, she had owned the thing, and she said to me I'd color my hair. Mm -hmm. She said, you know after a while your hair is just gonna grow this color. - And I just stopped going. Figure, this is just crazy, right? - Yeah, yeah. - I think she might have been waiting for me to ask her, "Oh, off, no, I need to colour." (laughing) And I fear, oh no. - Yes. - I don't want you in my head. (laughing) – 

0:26:10 BETSY: So, the Round P was in that strip mall where Ellington's was? – 

0:26:13 LILLIAN: Yes. - Yeah, okay. - Yes. 

0:26:15 BETSY: Where the Greek and then, yeah. – 

0:26:19 LILLIAN: Yes. – 

0:26:20 BETSY: And was Jerry's here?

0:26:22 LILLIAN: Jerry's was here a long time. Long, long time. I can't even remember how. Because Donovan, people don't know, he used to be a playwright when we were growing up.

0:26:36 BETSY: Yeah. – 

0:26:38 When we were in our, what was it, twenties? - Yeah. Right. And, and he also played soccer, you know, that's one of the things people did, play soccer. But they were always there. 

0:26:53 BETSY: I think they came in the 60s. Did they? And we did interview them. Right. And someone else was telling me there was quite a strong music. So Black music community of people that lived in this neighborhood. 

0:27:10 LILLIAN: Yeah. Yeah. And there still is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, trying to remember their name, Pluggie. There are at least five studios in this neighborhood.

0:27:21 BETSY: Wow. 

0:27:25 LILLIAN: And then, of course, later on, Ellington's, you know, um, and. And it was, you know, that was again more contemporary, you know, coffee and stuff and mixture of folks, but focusing on the music. Winston actually was an executive with one of the big record companies and decided to fire …??

0:27:58 BETSY: Okay, so they opened Ellington’s. – 

0:27:59 LILLIAN: But music is in his blood, 'cause 

0:28:01 BETSY: he had connections. –

0:28:02 LILLIAN: He also had a, was in a band in school. – 

0:28:06 BETSY: Okay, where did he go to school? – 

0:28:07 LILLIAN: He went to Oakwood. - Oakwood. - And his twin brother, who's son is, I think, an NHL player. They both played in the band, or they were part of it, and what's the name of the band? The band is still operational, you know. But Winston is a music person, you know, hands down. And so that became another centre, a community centre. It's just a community centre. And, you know, it's so interesting that every now and then you'd go in and you'd see somebody shaking in the corner, you know, having slept on the street or something and Heidi is kind of, you know, giving them a wet towel and feeding them or something like that. So, it was just-- - 

0:29:07 BETSY: Real, it was real, yeah. – 

0:29:08 LILLIAN: Yeah, so, you know, people just recreated kind of the care that they grew up with, or they knew or whatever. But even before that, I'm thinking when we went to England, the Dub Poets, where you have that new place just opposite where the Byway used to be. What's that new place? It's a little restaurant, a little cafe. – 

0:29:38 BETSY: Opposite the Byway.

0:29:43 LILLIAN: - Besides, down from the, is it, um...

0:29:50 BETSY: So, near the Jewish, um... – 

0:29:52 LILLIAN: Yes. 

0:29:53 Near the Chabad place. – 

0:29:55 LILLIAN: Yeah, so it's right in the corner. - Yes. - People hang out there. - Yes. - There's a little outside place. - Yeah. - Right? It was a speakeasy downstairs. You've got to go down like three, four, five. 

0:30:07 BETSY: (Laughter) Deep in the bowels. 

0:30:10 LILLIAN: Yeah. And probably some pretty serious things went on there. Well, at that time, we were naive of my age. We were trying to raise money to go to England, to the international world. Book Black and, you know, radical book fear. And somebody knew the guy and he said, “Oh, you can use our place for our fundraiser.” Oh, my golly. Oh, my. That's how I discovered it. Some other people knew about it. But it was one of those things where, you know, view this and, you know, people around there looking out and you know, you bang in the door, and it goes down and it went on to like seven in the morning. I'm sure there are a few around but that was it. 

0:31:08 BETSY: Your vibe. To take another look. (Laughter)

0:31:12 LILLIAN: Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure after we had our fundraiser the clientele probably got more.

0:31:18 BETSY: - It changed did they. (laughing) – 

0:31:21 LILLIAN: I call it the den of iniquity. - Yeah.

-0:31:30 BETSY:  Yeah. - Still the Dub Poet, not society. You started that? – 

0:31:35 LILLIAN: Yeah. - Yeah, 

0:31:3 36 BETSY: And it was upstairs from Wellington's? – 

0:31:39 LILLIAN: Oh yeah. That we were operational before that. 

0:31:42 BETSY: Okay. 

0:31:43 LILLIAN: Because I was staying in England, before trying to remember that it was before of my kid was actually a baby, right? First year after birth and we went to England. We're called D-dub poets, D-dub poets, myself, Clifton Joseph, and Devon Houghton. So, I pulled the group together 'cause I was always, I'm older and I was always out there, and I was at a job, and I was involved in activism. So, I got the opportunities. And I liked the idea of the intergenerational, but Devon grew up in the town I grew up with, and his parents also had like 10, 12 kids. So, you had different kids, different friendships at their age levels, right? So, I was happy for that connection. And later on, we expanded, you know. I think it might've been late eighties to pull in other dub poets. And we got support from government. I did some consulting and so forth. And that whole move to actually support some Canadian culture that they had ignored for so long. So we got support and figured that would have been, that would be a good place for the Dub Poets to be housed and Winston was very good about, you know, the organization using the space and he was involved and he's probably on the Board and that facilitated a lot of activities. We planned the festivals from there. Yeah. We had international people coming the first festival. We had was actually planned out of Trinity-St. Paul. I had an office there. I had a little record company. And we had ninety-two artists for the first festival. – 

0:33:53 BETSY: Wow. – 

0:33:56 LILLIAN: Yeah, that's a pretty thing. I know. – 

0:34:00 BETSY: And did it take place at Trinity-St. Paul's? – 

0:34:03 LILLIAN: No, different places. Actually, OCAD was probably the biggest location, yeah. And there are a couple of marriages that are still standing that came out of that. (Laughter) Isn't that people, like-minded, people finding each other, you know, so I get to when I travel the world or the country, I get to connect up with folks, right? So yeah, so that's good. So yeah.

0:34:32 BETSY: Wow. That's a lot of creativity, Lillian, both your own and the network-creating organizations and bringing together and it's a lot. 

0:34:45 LILLIAN: That's actually, that kind of networking work, initiating organization, making access for people is probably bigger than my career. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not seen that much. Like right now, I've got an opportunity, as Poet Laureate, to do something at Montgomery Inn. I'm starting to push some programming there and figure and then as soon as I do that, I'll get some folks to take it over and get a Black Community presence. 

0:35:21 BETSY: Fantastic. Yeah. 

0:35:24 LILLIAN: But that kind of thing, I'm always looking out for.

0:35:26 Where the opportunities are. 

0:35:26 LILLIAN: Yeah. 

0:35:27 BETSY: To make space. Yeah, yeah, 

0:35:30 LILLIAN: yeah, yeah.

0:35:38 BETSY: Yeah, that contribution you made to the program at Spadina House, telling this story of the Black. 

0:35:44 LILLIAN: Oh yeah. 

0:35:45 BETSY: Folks that worked there and just trying to lift up those stories. 

0:35:50 LILLIAN: Yeah, yeah, so many hidden stories. Especially in the city. Because, well, you know, it's disappeared or ignored for such a long time. And nobody thinks through what those things have created for everybody. It's like nobody thinks about the civil rights movement. and how it created a more open society for America, more freedoms, more, you know, claim to justice, et cetera. Right? They just look at it like, oh yeah, some Black people fought for some things, right? Yeah. So, I think it's the same thing, similar, where the participation of Black folks who are always trying to create space, access, open up, you know, trying to participate, have a presence, trying to link up and connect, you know, created a lot of changes in the society. And I think that's one of the reasons, you know, we're able to celebrate our multiculturalism. Mm culturalism, because of the protracted work of some of those people. And I think what can I say, Marlene Green, friend of Indica, you know, some of those people, Charles Roach, the wave of my time, et cetera. Me and Charles have a lane. 

0:37:27 BETSY: Yes. Well, you mentioned that you did some connecting with Oakwood, with the school, the high school.  

0:37:35 LILLIAN: Yeah. I mean, even with the Barns, just-- - The literature did. - You know, I was one of the people involved in fighting for the Barns. - To create it. - To create it, right? With Oakwood, I mean, my daughter went to Oakwood for a long time, right? And I'm always, I was trying to be engaged anyway. And I knew about Oakwood, the history of Oak, and I've gone in various times to, they've had some great principals over the years, but there's a program of mentorship. And I was asked if I could mentor some folks. It wasn't just Black kids, either. But some Black kids, and obviously because they were perceived to be in trouble, some of them still are, I'm still in touch with some of them. And so, for a number of years I mentored them, I gave them free access, I made them come to my classes at OCAD, a couple of them eventually ended up at OCAD. There's some of them in music now. And, you know, a TTC driver, you know, I meet them all the time. I forget some of them. But yeah, so, so yeah, that's something I like to do. Right. Especially in the community, because when I, you know, doing work even before that, when I ask kids what they wanna do or what they wanna be, they think about the limitations. And they think, you know, “I want to write for the Star.” They think that's so big and unattainable. And you know, so I like to make them know: That's all there for them, and it should be, and those things are possible if they strategize. And to give them a kind of unconditional support, because a lot of West Indian families, I'm going to say Black families, you know, it is, it sometimes is rough. Yeah, you need to be a certain way. And, you know, and when the kids grow up here, they're confused, right? And to just give them kind of unconditional support that they're okay, whatever they are, whatever their expression is they want to be. And, you know, they, they can try, and they can fail and not everybody can become a doctor or a lawyer. You’re watching them pray for their dream, or an engineer. You know, but, you know, finding something that makes them feel important, not even happy, right? Just find something that makes you feel important, that made you inside, right? - You go home, and you feel, yeah. - Yeah. - That was really good. I'm proud of myself, right? - That is the most important thing. - Right. - You know, for them to do. - Great. - That's my kind of opinion. So, I've been around, you know, on my street, we did, you know, street fairs. They'll work with Joe Mihevc, to get the park at the end of No Frills. 

0:41:18 BETSY: Okay, that's putting that park in. 

0:41:20 LILLIAN: Putting that park in. 

0:41:21 BETSY: Neat. 

0:41:22 LILLIAN: After I left here. Yeah, okay. I had a house on Weston Road where I lived near off on Chambers and then I figured I don't want a house in here. And so, I rented here and then after that I realized I want a house. And that time was easy to say that, right? Because then you could just go buy a house. Now it's like, do I have my first born?

0:41:49 BETSY: So, does that sort of contribute to a sense of community there and there's other artists on that street? 

0:41:58 LILLIAN: Yeah, in the early days it was, there's a teacher, Gudrun Weaver, who was very community minded. And she would be the driver of most of that thing. And Joe knew a few people on the street. 

0:42:14 BETSY: Susan and Robert Morgan are on the corner. 

0:42:16 LILLIAN: Yeah, they're on the corner. But it was old world, new world. Those who stay their backyards and those who stay on the front porch. So, for a while, it was more of a community, but after a number of years, and Gudrun moved away. And the kids got bigger. But our kids knew each other. 

0:42:50 BETSY: Yes, neighbourhoods evolve, change, and develop. I remember when we moved in here, we were the young, the family with young children and Sam was the grandparent, you know, they were the, now we're the grandparents and young children and families are moving in. Maybe I have families. Is there anything that you would want to comment on about how this neighborhood, St. Clair West has changed, evolved, what, what, uh...

0:43:24 LILLIAN: Well, the other thing I wanted to say is that there was a lot of activities in

the area. - Mm -hmm. - And Rosie walking up and down here with preparation of vegetables after the, the harvest, making wine, tomato sauce, yeah, I would get jars and jars of red pepper and stuff, yeah. And one of the things I loved was that there were people, and I call it the old world, I think they're mostly Portuguese and Italian playing their instruments. Oh. The mandolin, the guitar, or singing. Oh. Yeah. Oh, I have an extra stuff. 

0:44:25 BETSY: That's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

0:44:27 LILLIAN: Yeah. There's definitely a neighbor of mine. He also plays trumpets and so on. Right. But yeah, I'd walk around the neighborhood and, you know, there'd be an individual or two playing their music, right? And I always had a kind of plaintive sound, even if it was, you know, popping, right? And it really gave me an emotional sense of what they were longing for, right? Yeah, that stayed with me. So, yeah, I think the world's changed a lot.  

0:45:04 BETSY: Yes.

0:45:05 LILLIAN: I had a little pond in my backyard, and I would look out there and there'd be people sitting. People in the neighborhood or friends of mine would come and you know, some living in an apartment and so forth. I don't think people do that kind of thing nowadays. 

0:45:21 BETSY: Like just come and do that. 

0:45:22 LILLIAN:  Just come, yeah, they're out back. You're not gonna, you're not knocking on my door, although people from my town who knew where I lived, they would come and knock on my door, would come to visit. But other people just feel okay. And I'd say it's okay. You can go with  

0:45:43 BETSY: sharing private space in a very natural way. 

0:45:44 Yeah, you can go walk around there. So, I wouldn't be surprised to look out. So, they're not, they're not asking to use the bathroom on an occasion where they're not even wanting to talk to me if I want to go out and talk to them. They're there, they might be sitting down reading, they go away, or they bring a lunch or something. And then, you know, and I, I kind of love that vibe. I think more people acknowledged each other or at least felt more connected to each other and at least children in our time. Even if they weren’t friends, they kind of knew each other. They kind of ran into someone at you know church or skating or something, swimming or piano or something. But there was a definite sense of more connectivity, and therefore more safety, more at ease, right? You could just say, all right, go to school or come back this time or whatever, don't worry, yeah. So, no, I guess things are moving on, things are becoming more commercial. I used to know most of the shopkeepers, and they would know me too. But now, no, and I don't think there's any interest, apart from the ones you know already. Yeah, I don't think there's any, the culture isn't geared that way anymore, there's no interest. In fact, I find that people are in trouble. People are, you know’I don't know how people survive. A lot of people survive mentally and, you know, just economically and not having core community to say, "All right, you're doing good. All right, you're not doing good.” Everybody's on their own. 

0:48:07 BETSY: Feeling too isolated. Yeah. 

0:48:07 LILLIAN: Yeah. Yeah. So, it's not quite the Danforth yet, but it's becoming a destination place. I think it's a neighborhood still. People come in, but it’s most of the neighborhood who knows who. - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. - I don't think somebody from Mississauga is gonna say, okay, I'm going to St. Clair and, - Yeah. - Oakwood or St. Clair and stay for a meal. - Right. - They'll do that for the Danforth, right? - Right, right. - But I think we're gonna get there. - Okay. - Yes. I love before COVID in the summer where a lot of the places had music. and even drink a little bit a few other places. I love the festivals.

0:48:52 BETSY: Salsa on St. Clair. 

0:48:56 LILLIAN: Yeah, and the Brazilian festival down that way. Yeah, and you know, what can I say? Things change and change up on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And the school is still there. I don't hear a lot about it. I mean, one of the things that the schools, they used to give community use of schools, remember? - Yes, yes. - Yeah. – 

0:49:25 BETSY: And then they took it away and cutbacks back, yeah. – 

0:49:28 LILLIAN: Yeah, yeah, that's so brutal, yeah. – 

0:49:30 BETSY: Short-sighted.

0:49:31 LILLIAN: Yeah, they need to bring that back. 'Cause even that little Catholic school somewhere there. Yeah, yeah, you had different teams coming in and out from like six o 'clock to like 9:30. At 9:30, there’d be about five, six different groups, right?

0:49:48 BETSY: Community groups. 

0:49:51 LILLIAN: Yeah, doing their thing. Yeah. And I think that we lost that, and it lost some of the soul of the city. And that's where ordinary people, who didn't have access to boardrooms and stuff for some, would gather and if they had a little idea, they could get a group. 

0:50:11 BETSY: That's a really good point. 

0:50:14 LILLIAN: Yeah, and I think that was, to take that away was pretty brutal, and I think we're paying for it. 

0:50:23 BETSY: Yeah, yeah.

0:50:25 LILLIAN: Yeah, Otherwise, I don't know where the world is going. I think there's nobody in the world that we can trust whose voice, or we can say it's the truth, or we believe them, or they have absolute integrity. It's just it's a frightening thing. 

0:50:47 BETSY: Yes. So were you involved with the Wychwood Open Door or what were you doing?

0:50:55 LILLIAN: You know what, I sit my kids over here. You mean St. Michael’s- Yeah. - I sort of did some program in there. I was invited to go in and do things, give poetry workshop.

0:51:09 BETSY: Okay. Great.

0:51:09 LILLIAN: All of that stuff, yeah. – 

0:51:14 BETSY: Get me to do that again. (laughing) - Yeah. - Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, we have, I feel like we've had some really great political people, I mean, Jill Andrew and Joe Mihevc and so on and how, you know, oh, Carolyn Bennett to a certain degree and, you know, sort of what the balance is of we get good representation because we are an active community or you know an active community grows because it's got good representation or how have you had any sense of that? 

0:51:50 LILLIAN: I think yeah, I think it's important when we have good leadership, and the leadership needs to be connected to the community yeah that Joe was that yeah for me 100 %. Yeah. Jill is that yeah too. Yeah. I look around and I figure out where are the kids going nowadays, what are they doing, where are they, right? And everybody including myself complained that their, you know, devices and computers, whatever and so forth. But the basic thing that worked all these years and still is workable and workable in so many other ways and doesn't mean that it has to replace the devices is that collective. If we put our arms around St. Clair, we lost the Hungarian Center, which had its own thing, but it's pretty active, and look at where the gaps are and how we could provide these spaces. And even with these new developments, I don't know, we should not let them go without providing 150 theater space, Yeah, yeah, something like, right, you know, 

0:53:24 BETSY: So not just social housing, but community spaces.

0:53:28 LILLIAN: Yeah, that's, that's how you end the isolation, part of how you do it and part of how you build community. 

0:53:35 BETSY: And Wychwood Barns does. I mean, it has the big commercial part of it too, but the theater is there, the outdoor space. It is a lot of outdoor gathering space. 

0:53:45 LILLIAN: It is a lot.

0:53:46 BETSY: And the market and yeah.

0:53:49 LILLIAN: Yeah.

0:53:50 BETSY: Yeah, but that's been a big boon. 

0:53:52 LILLIAN: But it's a very expensive space. You shouldn't do that in a community. You should basically figure out a way that you have a community rate. You …?? But you should have a community rate yeah because that's what you want. 

0:54:07 BETSY: Yes exactly.

0:54:08 LILLAIN: You want people to use the space. 

0:54:13 BETSY: And feel like it's theirs. – 

0:54:16 LILLIAN: Yeah, and a lot of time, I mean, it's well used, but there's a lot of time that it's not used, it should be used 24 /7. We've got to get young people employed, some of the programs I did too, summer programs, we got them, sure people are employed and they're being trained and they can help the family situation with their income, They can know what it feels like to earn money and start to save. 

0:54:42 BETSY: Gains 

0:54:43 LILLIAN: and gains. 

Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Well.

0:54:46 LILLIAN: Look at you. You did all that.

0:54:47 Well, (laughter) you know every conversation is a little bit different but this one's been amazing. Is there anything that you would want to say or any question you would want to ask me that we haven't covered?

0:55:06 LILLIAN: Not really. No. Okay. I think that's covered. I think it's a great place, this area. Yes. It is actually my favorite area in the city.

0:55:20 BETSY: Nice.

0:55:22 LILLIAN: And yeah, It's a great place and I hope I hear that the kids who can't, all the kids from Forest Hill who can't afford the house are moving here. Yes, my neighbours. 

0:55:39 BETSY: We're lower Forest Hill.

0:55:46 DIANE: I did think of a question which is, can you tell us about your role as poet laureate?

0:55:51 LILLIAN: Well, you know, let me see, I mean, the basic thing about the role is that you're supposed to promote poetry in the city and for the city, right? And you can decide to interpret it any way you want. Okay. Right? It's kind of really a position of honor. But again, I see it as a way of networking people, collaborating, bringing people together, right? And providing access. And I'm looking at the gaps, I've been talking to a number of people and seeing what is it they need. And then I start proposing, I've started already, proposing that to high level people who can then talk to their administration and see how that works, you know. But I am happy to be Poet Laureate. I was just actually winding down my career when I got the email. But it's an honor that I accept because I love the city. And in some ways, I have to say, I love all the Poet Laureates that I’ve always felt like I was the people's point of view from a long, long, long, long time

0:57:13 BETSY: Before they recognized you.

0:57:14 LILLIAN: Yeah. And so, I've been doing some things like commissioning young people to write about figures in the city and different parts of the city. I did something where I commissioned so many people to write about Mary Anne Shadd Cary. And that was pretty amazing. I did some writing about it. I did a piece about Jean Augustine, you know. I'm commissioned, you know, some more to write about some other hidden figures, like Joshua Grover and so forth. And, you know, their own writing is based on their life in the city. So, I'm trying to elevate that and say time to hear these new voices and so I'm doing some of that. I have a list of about thirty things and 31 is vacation. (Laughter) One of the things, for example, I just pitched it to the editor of the Arts Council is to do a poetry mobile or mobile that would go into different areas, especially if poetry isn't or by a football field or something. I wouldn't be doing that, every now and then, but you know, get that going and like a bookmobile but about the poetry. Yeah, like for poets. Yeah. You know, they just go and do their thing. Yeah. Go to an event and you know, somebody would have to coordinate. But you know, just a few little things. Of course, your official invitations. And you're told that you can accept or not. - Okay. - I did do a little thing for the Scarborough Civic Center 50th anniversary, and I was invited by the councillor to come and read it 'cause I couldn't be on the day of the thing. And I did go, and I was delighted and made some contacts and what happens with that is that you start talking ideas and they say, "Oh, it’s a great idea, you know, we'll support it. Yeah, and you figure, oh yeah, they can do that. So, it's for me now to get people to it’s still work, like, you know, so I have to be talking to people and so on. And because of my cultural capital, which I'm aware of, and I've accrued, I can spend a little to bring them together, they'll trust me, they'll do it. For the most part, otherwise they figure out nothing's gonna happen or whatever, but they will trust me. So, I try and just do things that I know where people are sincere, the politicians are in admission, and they'll come through. - Yeah. - 'Cause yeah, I love that, and I'll see how that goes. But I love writing for people, occasional poetry and so on. We have come to our poetry society in Toronto. It's a very learned society. Everybody has a degree, two degrees, three degrees. So, you write without consciousness, like you're writing for a graduate class, right? Of course, spoken word came in and started the movement. And although, most spoken word artists have at least a BA, right? They haven't been trained in sort of, you know, poetics and so forth. Right. So, to be able to have some of that knowledge, and then free up myself in trying to delight an audience. It's been a sheer pleasure. It's like the piece at the Scarborough comes. It starts like: “Oh to be 50 and ready to roll.” No, if I did that anywhere else, they would just like the councillors were all just I could barely finish the line. But you know, that's what you want to go back to poetry. That's for the people in the people, not for a book or to be marked, you know, and call it what you want. I just would love for that enjoyment of language and words. So yeah, but I have a full-time job. 

1:02:08 BETSY: Yeah, so you're busy, you are very busy. Yes, yes. – 

1:02:10 LILLIAN: I'm involved with my students. My life is my creative practice and all that involves. That's the thing about it. I would be doing that stuff for free. And I thought about retiring and I'm like, hmm, I'll be doing that, I'm so engaged in that. I love the tension with students, their knowledge that they bring in, right? Because it's so unpredictable. You can expect at least one new thing a day, right? And I figure, I'll go with it some more. Yeah, that's great. 

1:02:48 DIANE: Very, very good. 

BETSY: From one artist to another, Diane is a visual artist.

1:02:59 DIANE: Yeah, well, there we go. 

1:03:02 BETSY: Fantastic.